kindkit | dismay and a question

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dismay and a question

I have not actually watched Downton Abbey and have no intention to, but yesterday I learned, through other sources, that (sort of spoilery I guess):(skip) the only queer character is a selfish, amoral villain.

Has anyone perchance critiqued this approach? I feel like what I've mostly seen all over the internets is either "OMG Downton Abbey is so great, yay!" or "Downton Abbey is a silly soap opera," but no "Let's talk about problematic and stereotypical representation." Admittedly, though, I haven't been looking for it.

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I don't watch Downtown Abbey either, but I have seen critique about this, without searching.
(I hope it reassures you a little)

It does, thanks. I was having a moment of thinking, "So where's all this social justice activism that fandom is always either patting itself on the back about or complaining about?"

I've seen it critiqued, yes.

In-show it's balanced by amoral, selfish, heterosexual villains and by a nice look at the attitudes of the day. (At no point is it suggested that Thomas is amoral *because* he is gay, which is refreshing.)

None of which excuses the show for not doing better for the era the show is being written in. Er, what I mean to say is, the Watsonian explanations are sound and good, the Doylist ones are absent, weak, or crappy.

I agree with this general assessment.

(At no point is it suggested that Thomas is amoral *because* he is gay, which is refreshing.)

If anything, I'd say the moments related to Thomas's sexuality are the ones where he's most sympathetic and vulnerable. I mean, the general thesis, "All of Thomas's outlets for finding love are doomed, because, society," is problematic in its own way. But it's not a, "Gay men are scheming, weak and predatory by nature" representation, either, IMHO.

Pretty much what I was going to say. It kind of bowled me over when the writing showed sympathy to Thomas in that scene with the wounded soldier. They gave his meanness and bad humour a foundation - "all my life I've been pushed around, just because I'm different" - and he said it as a part of a speech to comfort someone else, too. I didn't think the writers were mature enough (as writers), since so much of the show relies on tropes upon tropes. He feels like an outsider and he just fiercely wants the privileges he sees others around him enjoy.

There's a hell of a lot to critique in the show, but Thomas and O'Brien are my favourites. I'm dippy about them, villains or not, and I am so with Thomas. I think the reason why I like Thomas is because his feelings make perfect sense for me. The other servants are tiptoeing around being humble and knowing their place and so grateful and proud to be part of such a fine household with such fine people, wow, an earl, let us all form a line to lick his boots and bow and scrape, isn't the class system just wonderful? And Thomas is there seething and thinking "it isn't FAIR" and you know what, he is dead right. But being a servant and ambitious and bitter makes you evil in Dowton Abbey -verse.

Okay, yeah, they shouldn't have framed Bates, but I can't help and won't apologize for loving those two. I guess I just like "hurt and bitter" characters better than "was born with angelic knowledge of how to be a so-called good person in a feudal system whether oppressed or at the top of the food chain" characters.

That follows on another thing I was going to say, which is that there's a lot of fandom sympathy for Thomas (in particular) and I don't think it's reading against the grain of the narrative. To the extent there's a problem w/ his portrayal as a queer character, it's part and parcel of the problems of the portrayal of anybody who is an outsider or doesn't ultimately support the status quo. (I mean, I love Branson, my earnest Irish socialist war resister, but wow he gets some terrible -- and terribly clueless -- writing, and I think that portrayal is MEANT to be mostly sympathetic.)

Yep, yep, yep. Branson's one of the good guys, and Thomas is a villain. No matter how much I or anyone else likes him won't change that framing, although there are scenes in the show that show sympathy towards Thomas. I think it's likely he is being written as a tragic or semi-sympathetic villain, like Shylock in the Al Pacino version of The Merchant of Venice. Snape was kind of this as well, though he ended up being on the protagonist's side, however reluctantly.

The show could use more queer characters, though. I hope next season brings us a scandalous, trouser-wearing lesbian poet who Edith starts having feelings for. That would be in perfect keeping with the show's tropeyness. It's a sad fact that I can't think of a single 1920s trope for a neutral or positive portrayal of a non-straight man - they tended to be framed as debauched or weak-natured. The best thing would be if the show stepped outside of the tropes-only rule and gave us a non-tragic queer male genius of some stripe, and made Cora/O'Brien canon, but I'm not holding my breath.

My friend and I made up this whole story about Branson's younger brother who is a street hustler in Dublin and comes to live in England to get his act together. But that has very little to do with 1920's tropes :)

XD You should write for the show!

It would be a totally different show but I would love it. Check out my Downton Abbey tag for my thoughts (though they are mostly about Branson + various Crawley girls and Lavinia, not as focused on Thomas or Sarah.)

In some ways it could do improved by being a different show.

Will do!

(Should also note that, while Thomas's outlets for finding love are thwarted, that's not unique to him as a queer character. It's a very love-thwarting kind of show.)

It's like Mad Men with longer skirts--they're *all* awful. And of course soap operas require awful behavior to keep the Drama going. Even Lord Grantham can afford to be kindly in his remote way because he's living off the efforts of others without lifting a finger.

Yes, there's critique, but really he's one of many, many villainous characters and he's at his most sympathetic when he is able to express his sexuality or even tenderness towards other men.

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dismay and a question

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The following may be spoilery.

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And Some of them Kept a Carriage, and All of them Went to Hell

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