a fairly weird poll about fic and warnings

[kindkit]

So I seem to be writing another fic that is (in part) about queer adolescence. Which means I once again confront the Warnings/Content Notes/Tagging Dilemma.

When the fic is done, I'll post it to AO3, which asks that its "Underage" tag be used "for descriptions or depictions of sexual activity by characters under the age of eighteen." Alternatively, you can "Choose Not to Warn."

In the fic in question, an adolescent boy aged about 12 or 13 experiences sexual pleasure and orgasm in the context of a mystical/supernatural experience. No other human (or any embodied creature) is involved. The sexual content is about six sentences long and fairly euphemistic.

Back in the day I would never have warned for something like that. But fannish norms have changed, often for good reason, and we're in a cultural moment of hyper-alert (not to mention anti-LGBTQIA+ moral panic) about kids and sex.

So take my poll and give me your opinion! Does a scene like this really meet the threshold of "sexual activity?"

NB in practice I will almost certainly go the route of tagging (either "Underage" or "Choose Not to Warn") with content notes, because I think content notes are a much more useful tool than a tag like "Underage" which can cover everything from skeevy (imo) porn to pretty bare acknowledgement that adolescents experience desire and sometimes have sex. But I'm curious about where opinions lie nowadays in these corners of fandom.

Feel free to take the poll whether I know you or not. Please bear in mind that it's about the specific fictional scenario outlined above. It's not a referendum on warnings/notes in general.

ETA: I forgot to add an option for "Tag 'No Archive Warnings Apply' and add content notes." Sorry!

Poll #27420

Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: Just the Poll Creator, participants: 21

How to tag/content note this fic?

Tag "underage" and add specific content notes.
3 (14.3%)

Tag "choose not to warn" and add specific content notes.
11 (52.4%)

Tag "underage"; no notes needed.
0 (0.0%)

Tag "choose not to warn"; no notes needed.
5 (23.8%)

No tag, no notes.
0 (0.0%)

Something else.
2 (9.5%)

Comments

[ellen_fremedon]

I would probably tag No Archive Warnings Apply but add notes or additional tags. The TOS FAQ says "we rely on authors to use their judgment about the line between reference and description or depiction"; something like that feels like it functionally falls on the 'reference' side of the line.

(I am facing a similar dilemma down the road in my current WIP, with a character who is canonically married at 17.)

[kindkit]

"And on their wedding night, the couple, fully aware of the age of consent in the US state of California in 2022, abstained." There, fixed that for you! *grins*

AO3's mandatory content tags are just such a blunt instrument, it's frustrating even with the workarounds like additional tags. I don't know of a better system, but I wish there was one.

(Also, I worry that even by agreeing that this brief scene of completely non-exploitive adolescent sexuality should be warned for/noted, I'm giving in to the whole cultural panic about sex. Which I don't want to do. I don't want to harm anybody, but also sex is not innately harmful? Reading about sex, still less.)

[cathexys]

Think of it not as warning but as content notes. I've gotten much more comfortable with tags once I started reconceptualizign them that way.

And I'm a huge fan of using CNTW on everything. (Mostly, bc it causes me anxiety and also, I think it's useful to have all kinds of stuff in the CNTW category, bc there are all these Tumblr rumors that tell folks it means it always contains an archive warning when it does not. It means what it says. I choose not tro warn, so there may be PG curtainfic, NC17 hard core sex, or dead doves inside :)

[kindkit]

In general I do choose to warn, one way or another, because there are things I appreciate a warning for myself as a reader. And I try to bear in mind that everybody has a different line about what kind of content they want to avoid. But I can't help getting frustrated by the flattening effect where "brief mention of a thing" and "detailed discussion of a thing in the context of its being traumatic for the character" and "full-on porn of the thing" all get the same warning.

[ellen_fremedon]

I usually don't count "brief mention of a thing" towards archive warnings--the TOS say "In general, we rely on authors to use their judgment about the line between reference and description or depiction." Where I draw the line is generally to only use the archive warnings for underage or non-con if the act happens onscreen, is talked about graphically, or is the focus of the story; otherwise I will tag with more detailed additional tags but I don't use the archive warning.

(So, for example, I posted a story last year about characters processing the aftermath of a consensual but fraught sex pollen gangbang;* for one major but non-POV character this meant some trauma related to a past assault, which was a significant thread in the story. I didn't use the archive noncon warning, but I tagged it "Past Rape/Non-Con," "Non-graphic discussion of rape," and "Non-graphic discussion of consensual sex" and rated the story as a whole M.)

* And also/mostly the aftermath of the July Revolution of 1830.

[ellen_fremedon]

I will probably change the rating to CNTW when I get there, since canon also has a lot of Major Character Deaths starting right around that point.

[silveradept]

I have usually used "Choose Not To Warn" with content notes in the tags when I'm not sure that something neatly fits into a specific warning category.

For this specific instance, though, I feel where the warnings might be or not be is in how aware the kid is that what happened was sexual pleasure or whether they think of it in some other way. Because if it's "pleasure centers overloaded" there may not be a need for a warning, because it's not sexual, not really. If there's a cognizance that there's sexual pleasure and the entity causing the experience intentionally decides to set it off, or the kid does, then it might need to have the underage tag.

[shewhostaples]

Yes, I think this is where I'd sit with this. (But I CNTW for all sorts of things.)

[kindkit]

CNTW is almost certainly going to be the answer for this particular fic.

[kindkit]

Interesting, because that's not a place I would have thought of to draw the line. My own feeling is that "kid doesn't realize this is sexual" could potentially go to a much more porn-tropey place than if the kid does understand what they're feeling. To be clear, I don't think that's how you meant it! But it's an interesting illustration of how difficult it is to differentiate porn vs. non-porn versions of a story.

[silveradept]

Yeah, I didn't do a good job of describing what I was thinking. It's supposed to be more "if and only if the kid knows it's sexual and chooses to engage sexual pleasure or the entity knows it's sexual and chooses to engage sexual pleasure on the kid' then it might need the underage tag. But if neither kid nor entity know, and it's not described graphically or sexually, I'd say it doesn't need the top level warning.

[kateoftheangels]

My own view is this: many folks read the Underage tag on ao3 as being there to warn for underaged sexual activity across the spectrum of, as you say, self-pleasure and sexual awakening by mysterious psychic force all the way to full-on PWP with an adult. Your content warning in the notes will clarify where along the spectrum this is, but I feel that if it’s clear that what your adolescent character experiences is sexual in nature, many would err on the side of caution and use the tag plus notes.

My one caveat would be that if this is seven lines in, say, a 70,000 or even a 7,000 word fic, the proportionate lack of underaged sexual contact as compared to the rest of the fic (hey, sometimes it’s advertising, and people go looking for fic tagged Underage?)would steer me instead toward tagging CNTW and then a note about the seven lines that appear in chapter 7, as compared to if this was a 1,000 word fic.

[kindkit]

My one caveat would be that if this is seven lines in, say, a 70,000 or even a 7,000 word fic, the proportionate lack of underaged sexual contact as compared to the rest of the fic (hey, sometimes it’s advertising, and people go looking for fic tagged Underage?)would steer me instead toward tagging CNTW and then a note about the seven lines that appear in chapter 7, as compared to if this was a 1,000 word fic.

This particular fic is probably going to be short, but it was an issue in my last fic, which was over 50,000 words long and contained a handful of references to underage sex plus a brief scene of consensual sex between two 15-year-olds. In the end I went CNTW + note, because I was super reluctant to tag a fic "underage" when the underage sex was incidental to the story as a whole.


(Part of the impetus behind my poll was the frustration of realizing that I was facing the same dilemma again!)

I feel that if it’s clear that what your adolescent character experiences is sexual in nature, many would err on the side of caution and use the tag plus notes

*nods* That makes sense, and I recognize the functional and in some cases legal appropriateness. And yet I keep wondering about the implicit definitional issues. Are "this 13-year-old has sexual impulses just like most 13-year-olds, and masturbates" and "this 13-year-old is having a full-on sexual affair with an adult, which the story treats as completely unproblematic except for some tropey angst" really the same thing? And I don't mean that the latter should be censored (I personally think there's an important line between pure fiction and CSA material where real kids are harmed), but it's interesting that fandom has landed in a place where all depictions of adolescent sexuality are treated as potentially Problematic.

[lilacsigil]

I think that "choose not to warn" plus tags is probably the best way to go about it and one I commonly see where the fic is not about the character being underage.

I would not like "no archive warning apply" on a fic with underage sexual content of any kind.

[kindkit]

I would not like "no archive warning apply" on a fic with underage sexual content of any kind.

Fair enough, and I recognize that besides any other concerns, it's a legal issue in some countries.

I do wonder whether fanfic is holding itself to a more restrictive standard than professional fiction. From what I hear, many YA novels--which unlike this fic are marketed to teenage readers!--are full of sex.

[torachan]

I would do choose not to warn with no content notes, but that is because I use choose not to warn for all my fics.

[kindkit]

I've tended not to go for that option, in part because as a reader there are things I appreciate a warning for. But I increasingly understand why some writers prefer no warnings.

[likeadeuce]

I use 'choose not to warn' with anything that even mentions teen sexual activity because, frankly, I'm paranoid about people specifically using that tag to find fics and citizens the authors for writing underage. I don't know how much this actually happens but it definitely seems like something that could.

Anyway, that's why I suggested CNTW and add details