dear universe

[kindkit]

Please send me a show in which everyone is lesbian, gay, or bi. Not a show like Queer As Folk or The L Word that's specifically about a queer community, but an ordinary show that's about space adventures or pirates or demon fighters or cops or lawyers or boring white suburban middle-class couples. Just, all of them are LGB (some of them could be T, too, because that would be awesome, but they're also L, or G, or B). No straight people. Even the incidental characters with just one or two lines have to be wearing a Pride button or something.

A show like that might, just possibly, begin to make up for all the shows (even now) without any queer characters, or the ones where the queer characters are speedily killed off, or the ones that queerbait and then say "Nope, these characters are straight," or the ones that have an unspoken quota system for queer characters so there can only be so many.

I eagerly await your response in this matter.

Sincerely,

Me

Comments

[sovay]

Not a show like Queer As Folk or The L Word that's specifically about a queer community, but an ordinary show that's about space adventures or pirates or demon fighters or cops or lawyers or boring white suburban middle-class couples.

I have been hearing that Black Sails is very close to this for pirates: it does not just have significant queer characters in the main cast, the queer characters are the main cast whose stories drive the plot, which ran four planned seasons and apparently just stuck the landing in spectacular style. rydra_wong and selenak especially have been making it sound worthwhile.

[kindkit]

I've heard very good things about Black Sails. I actually watched the first few episodes but bounced hard off of the grim-n-gritty, everyone betrays everyone tone. Then I started watching the Exorcist.

But I've since heard that the later seasons of Black Sails are different and much better than S1, so I might give it another try.

[sovay]

But I've since heard that the later seasons of Black Sails are different and much better than S1, so I might give it another try.

That is also what I've been told, for what it's worth: it remains a violent show, but not a grimdark one. Also, postcolonialism.

[edit] Apropos of nothing except queer characters, did I remember to recommend you KJ Charles' Spectred Isle (2017)? I do not know your mileage on speculative fiction; it is probably closer to secret history than alternate history in that its world appears to have had our World War I, but the facts of the War Beneath the War are not known to the general public even though they are the explanation for the wartime and postwar boom in spiritualism, theosophy, other forms of the occult—the veil between this world and the rest really was ripped thin on both sides, and we are now seeing the effects. One character's profession is to deal with these effects, the other just puts his foot into the uncanny and the next thing he knows his life is filled with things he wasn't expecting, like this distractingly hot other man. The romance evolves out of the pursuit of the mystery. Both men were soldiers and differently fucked up by their experiences in war. Every now and then someone says something that is phrased too much like 2017 instead of 1923, but on the whole it was just really solid as both a mystery plot and a romance where I care about the outcome. The next book in the series appears to concern entirely different characters, but the ending of Spectred Isle is open enough that I assume its protagonists will eventually return. I hope so; I liked them. I guess the story has some straight characters in it somewhere, but they are not the point.

[kindkit]

Ooh, that sounds like very much my kind of thing. I've read other KJ Charles books and liked them (though I am apparently That Person who reads m/m romance for the plot--I tend to skim/skip Charles's sex scenes because they're usually some flavor of BDSM, which is not my kink).

Oh, I also meant to thank you for recommending that Ian MacDonald book. I haven't had a chance to read it yet but it's on my to-read list!

[sovay]

I've read other KJ Charles books and liked them (though I am apparently That Person who reads m/m romance for the plot--I tend to skim/skip Charles's sex scenes because they're usually some flavor of BDSM, which is not my kink).

There's a little of that in Spectred Isle, but it manifests mostly in conversation: one of them really talks during sex.

Which else by Charles do you recommend? I came at Spectred Isle cold—from internal references I figured out that it's in the same continuity as The Secret Casebook of Simon Feximal, but haven't looked into that one yet.

Oh, I also meant to thank you for recommending that Ian MacDonald book. I haven't had a chance to read it yet but it's on my to-read list!

I'm glad! I saw the announcement and pretty much thought of you.

[kindkit]

I like all of Charles's stuff that I've read, but there are some I like particularly. Think of England is good--it's got a traumatized ex-soldier and a country house murder plot. I also like A Seditious Affair, a middle book in the Society of Gentleman series but readable as a standalone if you like. The protagonist is a working-class radical and there's a lot of focus on class and politics. My favorite is perhaps An Unseen Attraction, the first of the Sins of the Cities series--the characters feel more fully realized than in some of Charles's other books, and while you can sometimes feel the effort Charles is making to be inclusive and progressive (for example, one of the protagonists is a man of color who is also on the autism spectrum), I like the result. I've heard good things about the rest of that series but I haven't read them yet.

[sovay]

My favorite is perhaps An Unseen Attraction, the first of the Sins of the Cities series--the characters feel more fully realized than in some of Charles's other books, and while you can sometimes feel the effort Charles is making to be inclusive and progressive (for example, one of the protagonists is a man of color who is also on the autism spectrum), I like the result.

Thank you! I'll look for these.

[rydra_wong]

*sidles in via a content search to see if anyone's talking about Black Sails, hoping that's not creepy*

it does not just have significant queer characters in the main cast, the queer characters are the main cast whose stories drive the plot

In the interests of strict fairness and not over-selling things, I feel obliged to note that some of the leads are straight/unspecified by canon.

Because it's an ensemble show, exact percentages depend on who one classes as a "lead" versus "really important supporting character", and whether extra points are awarded for "especially significant lead character e.g. [SPOILER]", etc. etc. However, a rough headcount off the top of my head gives me about half the leads being canonically queer, and their stories do indeed drive the plot (including the backstory that propels and underlies the entire show, which does not happen without the sexuality of particular characters).

As I've mentioned to sovay, I think the queerness isn't incidental, it's absolutely intrinsic to the themes of the show, and the way it deliberately focuses on people who are marginalized and written out of the official narratives.

So it's not an "everyone is LGBT" universe, not by a long way. And it doesn't do things perfectly. But it does do some important things.

And the way they handle the storylines of the queer characters generally seems like they are conscious of and making a deliberate decision to avoid/invert the usual tropes about how those storylines go, especially at the very end of the show (trying to express this in as vague and unspoilery a manner as possible ...). Which I know meant a lot to a lot of people.

(kindkit, I will at the drop of a hat deliver the speech about why the early eps give a terrible and false impression about the kind of show it turns out to be. Or just link to people doing it better than I can. *waits hopefully in case anyone accidentally drops a hat*)

[kindkit]

Not at all creepy! I miss the kind of open fannish discussions that used to happen on LJ and DW, and which seem increasingly rare now. (I guess they've all moved to Tumblr now and everyone communicates in hashtags?)

Clearly I should give Black Sails another chance. In particular it's comforting to know that the ending is good, because I keep having my heart broken by open canons with queer characters (also unspecified-sexuality but queer-readable characters, who always end up being specified as straight). It has literally gotten to the point where it's hard for me to enjoy queer characters' storylines, because I'm waiting for something awful to happen--queer character is killed, queer character ends up sad and alone, queer character is de-queered somehow, same-sex relationship is devalued in favor of a het one, etc. etc.

So, about when does Black Sails start getting better? Do I have to endure a whole first season of grim-n-gritty betrayals, excessive plot twists, and too many voyeuristic and vaguely exploitive shots of women's half-naked bodies? I think I've only seen three episodes (through the one in which Eleanor betrays Max) and while I do want to see the good stuff, the prospect of five more hours of that does make me quail a bit.

[rydra_wong]

*bounces and claps hands at chance to babble*

too many voyeuristic and vaguely exploitive shots of women's half-naked bodies?

IIRC, you're through the worst of that already; it's dire in the first few eps then drastically improves (there's also a modest uptick in male nudity; bless certain cast members for being willing to get their dicks out for the sake of equity).

Excessive plot twists: the show has twisty plots (and a fair few betrayals) throughout, but it's a lot easier to follow and care about, when, you know, you've had a chance to know who the characters are and give a shit about them.

(I was saying elsewhere that with hindsight, I think you can make a case that the scene where Max asks Eleanor to leave with her and she refuses may be the single most important scene in the entire show, because of the way it resounds and has emotional consequences for those two all the way through to the end of S4, but also because of how it introduces thematic stuff that'll be at the core of the show.)

And the general grim-and-gritty -- it is a gritty universe throughout, with a high level of violence. But it very much isn't the grimdark dark-n-edgy "everything is awful and everyone betrays everyone and women just get raped a lot because REALISM" that you might assume from S1.

If you can make it to 2.01, you're definitely good (the show gets instantly markedly better then, and also has an immediate increase in canon queerness). But the last few eps of S1 (6-8) aren't too bad and have some good things in them (and a couple of very important things).

What are your feelings on spoilers? I got through S1 by dint of being heavily spoiled; I would very much like to offer some mild/generalized spoilers that I think help a lot, e.g. knowing very roughly about the nature of Max's arc and how the show treats her for the rest of its duration, because it's not at all what you might (reasonably) assume from the early eps, and it's wonderful.

Comment threads in my DW have covered "When The Show Stops Being Rape-y" and "Possibilities For Getting Through Season 1".

And I'm reccing selenak's Black Sails: Why Everyone Should Watch It! (written after S2 and before S3) as useful for people who want some targeted spoilage (including the Big Backstory Reveal from mid-S2, which makes some of S1 much more enjoyable when you know it), to give you some pointers about what the show's got going for it while leaving you completely unspoiled for later seasons.

(Note: selenak refers to all the queer characters as bisexual; I think some are confirmed by later canon to be strongly/exclusively monosexual in their preferences, while others are definitely bi. There's also fannish Discourse over whether certain characters should be called lesbian/gay or bisexual, and in general I think "queer" is especially appropriate given that none of them have access to 20th-century terminology to describe their identities.

However, I just wanted to note that this is extremely NOT the thing where the show gets to have the titillating f/f scenes as long as it's made clear that the women are still sexually available to men. ETA: hopefully obviously, I am not intending to imply that bisexual women are "sexually available to men", but that this is a way shows sometimes seem to like to use/portray characters.)

[rydra_wong]

In particular it's comforting to know that the ending is good, because I keep having my heart broken by open canons with queer characters (also unspecified-sexuality but queer-readable characters, who always end up being specified as straight). It has literally gotten to the point where it's hard for me to enjoy queer characters' storylines, because I'm waiting for something awful to happen--queer character is killed, queer character ends up sad and alone, queer character is de-queered somehow, same-sex relationship is devalued in favor of a het one, etc. etc.

*nodnodnod*

If you'd like, I can give you some Black Sails spoilers of the most generalized/vague nature re: these things, because I think you'll generally find them good to know and it will increase your enjoyment.

(Right now I am trying so hard to sit on my hands and not blurt anything until I know your spoiler preferences.)

I've been reading through Tumblr posts from when the show was airing, and people were (for the same reasons as you) so afraid that the show would do [various things it does not do], and nobody really believed/expected/dared hope it would do [things it does do].

[kindkit]

No, I trust the reassurances I've seen from you and others. I don't need specific spoilers. (Almost the only time I want spoilers is when it's "Is this character actually queer or is this just a tease?" or "Is this queer character going to be killed, and is it going to happen right after they've just kissed their love interest for the first time?" or "Is this same-sex relationship going to turn out okay?" It sounds as though Black Sails mostly avoided these pitfalls.)

[rydra_wong]

The one thing I feel obliged to mention is that they do kill one canonically queer character (in a plotline which I swear reads as "WARNING: HETERONORMATIVITY KILLS").

And I think it's dramatically justified (and balanced by the truly impressive number of surviving queer characters, and especially certain other things they did that season), but it is a thing.

I've seen a lot of posts from LGBTQ fans saying they felt very respected and well cared-for by the show.

(Also, your icon? THAT IS BLACK SAILS.)

[executrix]

It's utter rubbish, but Dante's Cove is about lots of good-looking gay guys and some good-looking lesbians having vaguely supernatural adventures. As for a really *good* series where everyone is lesbian, gay, or bi, I got nothin'.

[kindkit]

*nods* I kind of want to be able to watch Dante's Cove, but I don't think I could. There are a lot of low-budget gay movies I wish I could watch, too, but the poor writing and poor acting kill my buzz.

[executrix]

Netflix finally got S3 of Dante's Cove, so I can find out what happens when World's Best Boyfriend gets sucked into Hell through a (literal) closet door. The writing and acting are indeed Unspeakable and Not to be Named Among Christians (or anyone else).

[aurumcalendula]

This!

The closest I've got of the shows I'm watching is Wynonna Earp (the great-granddaughter of Wyatt Earp and her allies deal with demons and various other monsters in a town called Purgatory) - by season 2 about half of our heroes are textually queer.

[kindkit]

Huh, I'd heard of the show but I had no idea that that was what it was about. I thought it was a straightforward western. It sounds like fun. Thanks for the rec--I'll check it out.

[aurumcalendula]

I initially started watching because of a clip I saw of a meet-cute, so I was thrilled to find out it was a genre show instead of a straightforward western. There are (in my opinion) some writing missteps, but I’m really fond of it.

[halotolerant]

very much seconding the above

*sighs*

I am interested by the comment discussion about Black Sails. I gave up on it after about 3 episodes, and if those are not representative then I would be prepared to give it another shot. I've never really got over Hornblower TV series as my first hugely slash fandom, give or take *g*

[kindkit]

I think we gave up at about the same point. I don't have a very high tolerance for stories that are all about bad people doing bad things, and any good people being unrelentingly victimized. (This is why I have never watched Game of Thrones.) And it seemed like Black Sails was going to be that. But apparently not.

Still, I would pay so much money to have The Exorcist's arc be "gay priest and his bisexual priest boyfriend battle demons and also the institutionalized homophobia of the Catholic Church." Because it's a show I already love, and characters I've already grown excessively attached to. I do plan to try Black Sails again, but it feels like work.

[rydra_wong]

I do plan to try Black Sails again, but it feels like work.

Yeah, it's ... *sighs*. It's tricky for me because I really want to sell it to people because it blew my mind and because there's so much in it that's precious and wonderful. But there's this hurdle of the early eps you have to get through first.

So it's asking people to make this significant investment of time and mental energy before they can get a sense of whether they like the show and it's worthwhile for them (or, in fact, to ignore the sense they already have that they don't and it isn't). Which is work, totally. And I don't want to downplay that.

[silveradept]

At least according to Word of God (or Word of St. Peter), Torchwood is supposed to be that program, although the queerness of characters is not necessarily demonstrated consistently on the screen.

[kindkit]

I have spectacularly mixed feelings about Torchwood. For me it was one of those shows where I often wanted to shout at the screen "Yes I wanted queer representation, BUT NOT LIKE THAT!"

There was a lot of Torchwood that I liked/loved, but a lot that really frustrated me, too. (I liked S1 a lot more than S2, and I adored--with a couple of major exceptions--Children of Earth, so it's possible that I'm just weird in some ways.)

I do think that Torchwood probably opened a lot of doors for queer representation, so I'll give it at least that much credit!

[silveradept]

It did do that. I have mixed feelings about Torchwood as well, and am worried a re-watch might make it a lot less enjoyable than it was when I didn't know as much as I do now. But I will at least stop before Miracle Day, because that was not good at all.

[kindkit]

I never did watch Miracle Day; everything I heard about it made it sound terrible. The goal of it seemed to be to strip Torchwood of everything that made it unique and turn it into a generic American action/sci-fi show.

[silveradept]

That's an excellent summation of Miracle Day. Not that the actors weren't doing their very best with the crap they had, but they wasted Gwen in it, they made Jack out to be worse than usual, and it was just bad. Just bad.