I think it's just about perfect. Almost everything they say is very tentative, sort of talking around the subject, but there is so. much. feeling. Much better than the more straightforward romantic declarations that Jonny said he tried in early drafts. I don't think Jon could do that, even in those circumstances after everything they'd been through, and I also don't think Martin was ready to hear it. (I'm also glad they hugged rather than kissed, because besides the sound of kissing being gross, I think it would have been emotionally inappropriate for them at that moment. It would have been bathos, really; a scene out of a rom-com intruding into a story where the stakes of love are much higher. I wish them all the kisses in the world, of course, but after they have a chance to get away and be safe-ish and have a good talk.)
I think it's just about perfect. Almost everything they say is very tentative, sort of talking around the subject, but there is so. much. feeling. Much better than the more straightforward romantic declarations that Jonny said he tried in early drafts.
Yes! And on top of the issues of characterization and where they're at in terms of relationship development -- "I love you!" "I love you too!" *kiss* is the most generic thing imaginable.
Whereas everything in this -- "I thought you might be lost", "I see you" etc. -- is so beautifully specific to these characters, in this situation, with all their history and context. It couldn't be anyone else.
Which is not only good writing, it's thematically appropriate, since so much of S4 in particular is about how to stay oneself AND how to connect with others.
Also: I was thinking today about how I love Martin's arc, how he grows into his own agency and gets to be a kind of co-protagonist in S4, but how it's also so great -- especially given all the context you discussed, about the Sad Pining Lonely Gay Man trope -- that he also gets to be the Love Interest, the person who's desired and yearned after and maybe unattainable, and that earning a relationship with Martin is, in dramatic structure terms, Jon's reward for his heroism in flinging himself into the Lonely to try to rescue him.
Which: FUCK YEAH. Because Martin is WONDERFUL, and I'm glad the show knows that too.
I do find it kind of satisfying that Martin, having been unrequitedly in love with Jon for ages, gets to reject him repeatedly (in the context of them ultimately getting together--as you can guess, I wouldn't have liked it nearly so much if they hadn't!) And that Martin is the one who first gets what in a het romance would be the stereotypically male role: the one who sacrifices himself to keep his beloved safe. Then Jon gets to do it too, so they're equally heroic.
Martin is WONDERFUL
He so is. And I like that we see him become wonderful. He starts out sweet and thoughtful, and brave and pragmatic in unexpected ways (fire extinguishers!), but also kind of a doormat. But then his double-agent role through most of S4 means he has to tell Jon "no" over and over again, no matter how much he wants to say yes, and then the climax of his S4 arc is saying no again, asserting his agency in a very definitive way. I think, weird as it sounds, his experience with the Lonely ultimately did him some good? It detached him enough from Jon that, while he came back loving Jon as deeply as ever, he's not loving him in such a self-abnegating way.
Yeah, and he gets to be complicated, too. He's not (just) a Cinnamon Roll; he's genuinely sweet and caring but it's also tangled up in people-pleasing from his emotionally abusive/neglectful background; he gets to snap at people, he gets to be mean.
I think, weird as it sounds, his experience with the Lonely ultimately did him some good? It detached him enough from Jon that, while he came back loving Jon as deeply as ever, he's not loving him in such a self-abnegating way.
I know what you mean. Definitely it's the season when (after Jon's "death") he stops waiting on other people; he takes charge of the story and makes his own decisions. And then yeah, as you say, has to constantly say "no" and assert his agency in relation to others, Jon included.
And the Lonely itself feels like something that's always had its hooks in him, in that deep deep belief that no-one will ever really love him back, and the consequent lure of cutting himself off in the hope of finally hurting less, becoming numb.
Does feel like -- on the one hand, S4 makes him cut off his co-dependency; on the other hand, there's the lure of giving up on human connections altogether, self-isolating in a depressive way.
And in the end there's something cathartic in having that pushed to such an extreme, to the point where he feels he doesn't want to come back from it, and instead finally getting undeniable proof of love from the person he loves.
As a grumpy and solitary person, I am generally averse to narratives in which people are Saved By Romantic Love, but this feels so specific to these two characters and so hard-earned; I love it (and them).
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2020-01-13 07:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-01-13 08:38 am (UTC)Also Alex seems to want to have it on record that if you can't tell that they're hugging, IT'S NOT FOR LACK OF TRYING ON HIS PART, OKAY:
https://wildehacked.tumblr.com/post/188569120820/edward-keystone-they-fucking-hugged
no subject
Date: 2020-01-14 03:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2020-01-15 06:09 pm (UTC)Yes! And on top of the issues of characterization and where they're at in terms of relationship development -- "I love you!" "I love you too!" *kiss* is the most generic thing imaginable.
Whereas everything in this -- "I thought you might be lost", "I see you" etc. -- is so beautifully specific to these characters, in this situation, with all their history and context. It couldn't be anyone else.
no subject
Date: 2020-01-15 08:01 pm (UTC)Which is not only good writing, it's thematically appropriate, since so much of S4 in particular is about how to stay oneself AND how to connect with others.
no subject
Date: 2020-01-15 07:34 pm (UTC)Which: FUCK YEAH. Because Martin is WONDERFUL, and I'm glad the show knows that too.
no subject
Date: 2020-01-15 07:58 pm (UTC)I do find it kind of satisfying that Martin, having been unrequitedly in love with Jon for ages, gets to reject him repeatedly (in the context of them ultimately getting together--as you can guess, I wouldn't have liked it nearly so much if they hadn't!) And that Martin is the one who first gets what in a het romance would be the stereotypically male role: the one who sacrifices himself to keep his beloved safe. Then Jon gets to do it too, so they're equally heroic.
Martin is WONDERFUL
He so is. And I like that we see him become wonderful. He starts out sweet and thoughtful, and brave and pragmatic in unexpected ways (fire extinguishers!), but also kind of a doormat. But then his double-agent role through most of S4 means he has to tell Jon "no" over and over again, no matter how much he wants to say yes, and then the climax of his S4 arc is saying no again, asserting his agency in a very definitive way. I think, weird as it sounds, his experience with the Lonely ultimately did him some good? It detached him enough from Jon that, while he came back loving Jon as deeply as ever, he's not loving him in such a self-abnegating way.
no subject
Date: 2020-01-17 08:53 am (UTC)Yeah, and he gets to be complicated, too. He's not (just) a Cinnamon Roll; he's genuinely sweet and caring but it's also tangled up in people-pleasing from his emotionally abusive/neglectful background; he gets to snap at people, he gets to be mean.
I think, weird as it sounds, his experience with the Lonely ultimately did him some good? It detached him enough from Jon that, while he came back loving Jon as deeply as ever, he's not loving him in such a self-abnegating way.
I know what you mean. Definitely it's the season when (after Jon's "death") he stops waiting on other people; he takes charge of the story and makes his own decisions. And then yeah, as you say, has to constantly say "no" and assert his agency in relation to others, Jon included.
And the Lonely itself feels like something that's always had its hooks in him, in that deep deep belief that no-one will ever really love him back, and the consequent lure of cutting himself off in the hope of finally hurting less, becoming numb.
Does feel like -- on the one hand, S4 makes him cut off his co-dependency; on the other hand, there's the lure of giving up on human connections altogether, self-isolating in a depressive way.
And in the end there's something cathartic in having that pushed to such an extreme, to the point where he feels he doesn't want to come back from it, and instead finally getting undeniable proof of love from the person he loves.
As a grumpy and solitary person, I am generally averse to narratives in which people are Saved By Romantic Love, but this feels so specific to these two characters and so hard-earned; I love it (and them).