love triangles poll!

[kindkit]

I've been thinking about that ever-so-common plot device, the love triangle, and wondering if I'm especially weird in how much I hate them. So, a poll! It asks only about the "two men in love with and competing for the same woman" kind of triangle, because that's by far the most frequent kind and the kind that especially puts me off.

Everyone is welcome to vote--you don't have to know me or subscribe to my journal or whatever. And if you'd like to elaborate on your responses in the comments, that's great.

ETA: The second question is meant to be pretty flippant and silly, so don't feel like you're answering it "wrong"!

Poll #15018

Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 79

View Respondents

1) You learn that a book/film/TV show features a love triangle of the "classic" sort: two men who both love the same woman. Are you:

View Answers

More interested in reading/watching than you were before
0 (0.0%)

Less interested in reading/watching than you were before
60 (75.9%)

Neither more nor less interested in reading/watching
19 (24.1%)

2) Love triangles can be resolved by:

View Answers

Duels
8 (10.5%)

Fistfights
4 (5.3%)

Flipping a coin
5 (6.6%)

Heroic renunciation on someone's part
15 (19.7%)

Kidnapping
2 (2.6%)

Plot-convenient death
11 (14.5%)

Polyamory
64 (84.2%)

The two competitors behaving as though the love object's own feelings mattered
67 (88.2%)

The vertex/love object declaring "a pox on both your houses" and running away
62 (81.6%)

The two competitors realizing they're actually triangulating their forbidden love for each other
55 (72.4%)

Comments

[naraht]

In the poll I answered "neither more nor less interested," because I think it depends very much how the triangle is presented. If it's "two men who both love the same woman" that does tend to position the woman as very much the love object and not of interest in her own right. But if it's "a woman has to choose between two men," or something along those lines, then I'm all over it. And have written it in original fiction as well.

I've keenly shipped some love triangle pairings where the men in question were good friends. Jean-Luc Picard\Beverly Crusher/Jack Crusher (Star Trek TNG) and Cigarette Smoking Man\Teena Mulder/Bill Mulder (X-Files). But in both cases I was really primarily interested in the woman - having her desired by more than one man seemed to reinforce how interesting she was - and therefore I would have had little motivation for cutting her out of the equation.

Basically, if there's a woman in the triangle, then I'm pretty much only interested in seeing the apex of the triangle filled by a woman.

I know it hasn't got the gender proportions you specified, but out of interest: were you bothered by the love triangle in The Charioteer?

[kindkit]

No, because it wasn't the formulaic "two men compete for a woman" triangle that seems to crop up in every second Hollywood movie and blockbuster novel these days. It was also written differently than a lot of such triangles, because there isn't exactly competition between Ralph and Andrew; the focus is on Laurie coming to understand what he wants. ETA: Also, Ralph and Laurie and Andrew are all well-developed characters, and I can see what Ralph and Andrew each love about Laurie and what he loves about them. Nobody is a prize or a plot device, unlike "classic" love triangle stories where the woman is usually those things and very little else.

If it's "two men who both love the same woman" that does tend to position the woman as very much the love object and not of interest in her own right. But if it's "a woman has to choose between two men," or something along those lines, then I'm all over it.

I've hardly ever seen the latter in mainstream stories, though. Of course I am het-avoidant so that may affect my sense of what's common. But it seems like when I see love triangles in movies/books/tv (mostly movies and tv) it's always focused on two men who are friends or frenemies, with the woman as an object to be won.

[naraht]

It was also written differently than a lot of such triangles, because there isn't exactly competition between Ralph and Andrew; the focus is on Laurie coming to understand what he wants.

Yes, agreed. That's exactly what I was getting at with the distinction between "love object" and... whatever the other version is, I'm not sure if it has a name.

It is certainly less common to see the woman treated as something more than an object. (Of course this is a complaint that isn't unique to love triangles!). Both of the cases I've mentioned have the main period of the love triangle set significantly before canon, but its repercussions continue to affect the characters' lives during the period of the show. And I certainly wouldn't say that Beverly Crusher (at least) is treated in the narrative as an object to be won.

It seems to me that you can also find a good number of examples in classic literature where it's the woman's choice that's the point of the story: Madame Bovary, Anna Karenina, Middlemarch, He Knew He Was Right, etc etc etc, I could go on.

Obviously I can't disagree that there are plenty of counterexamples of love triangles being treated in the way that you describe. You could argue that what I'm talking about is a completely different trope. But if what we're discussing is simply man-woman-man love triangles, then I would argue that treating the woman as nothing more than a prize or an object is simply bad writing rather than an inherent weakness in that sort of love triangle.

We agree in disliking badly written love triangles!

[pocketmouse]

I watch so little media that my most likely way in is by finding the threesome fic first.

[magnetic_pole]

I'm not much of a fan, either--in fact, none of the choices in the second question sounded even vaguely appealing. Insofar as I can drum up any interest, I invariably find myself sympathizing with the "losing" party and getting frustrated... M.

[boxofdelights]

But polyamory? Nobody loses?

[magnetic_pole]

Point taken! But I feel like I haven't seen much of that scenario (I'm thinking here of published fiction, rather than fanfic).

Like kindkit, perhaps (kindkit, correct me if I'm not representing you well), my frustration comes from the fact that human relationships are presented as a reductive, winner-take-all situation, where it's not just that three people can't fall in love, but that the entire scenario of falling in love (or lust) becomes schematic. Also, I always want the heroine to get together with her friend, rather than either of the two dashing young men presented as the only options! M.

[kindkit]

Well, the second question was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but I think it ended up sounding more serious than I intended. Maybe I should have included the Twilight resolution of: one competitor imprints upon the infant daughter of the other two, who will be his True Destined Love as soon as she's old enough to fuck. Leave it to Twilight to find the most appalling way out.

[magnetic_pole]

No, no, I knew you were being tongue-in-cheek, I just couldn't summon up a sense of humor about it. That said, your comment about imprinting did make me laugh. Leave it to Twilight! M.

[diony]

Perhaps the author had been reading about the Bloomsbury group. (Unlikely, I know, but the thought pleases.)

[lilacsigil]

Two men "competing" for the same woman is the key for me - the creator sees it as a competition rather than a group of relationships. Even when the two men are equal prospects (surprisingly rare) and each a symbol of a different way of life for the woman, it's annoying because I'd much rather see her choosing between, say, being a starship pilot or a revolutionary IN SPACE than dating a starship pilot or a revolutionary, even IN SPACE.

An example I have been watching recently: Kira on Deep Space 9 has a choice of two men. One is a religious figure on her planet, the other is Security Chief Odo. She has a long history of friendship with both. Whenever the plot was about her interests or her and man-of-choice spending time together, it worked well. Whenever the plot was about Odo's (at the time) unrequited feeeeeeeelings and how he could never speak of them to Kira, it was terrible and treated her like an object. Now that Kira/Odo is happening, Kira's interests and philosophies and bad-ass battle strategies are again leading the plot and Odo is supporting her decisions and isn't doing any mooning around. This indicates to me that writers have a really strong idea of how a love triangle should work and shoehorned their characters into it without thinking about what the characters might actually do.

[oursin]

Oh yes - I read an sf novel set on a space station once where I really thought the emotional triangle was going to be solved by a sensible polyamorous arrangement, and it wasn't, and I only didn't hurl the book at the wall because I was actually on a plane at the time.

[kindkit]

Kira/Odo is a rare het ship that I actually like most of the time. When I don't like it, it's for the reasons you mention--that the narrative gets so invested in "love triangle" or even just "love story" and forgets who Kira is. One of my least favorite DS9 episodes is the one where Odo and Kira finally get together, even though I wanted them to get together, because it was handled so badly. It was all about Odo learning to be a real man and behave in proper manly ways, with helpful advice from whatsisname, the hologrammatic lounge singer from 1960s Las Vegas (because Las Vegas in the 1960s is an excellent model for gender relations!).

I always found it strange that the show treated Odo's male identity as completely natural and unproblematic, considering that his species should logically have neither biological sex nor gender identity. Of course he was raised among people who had both, but even so . . . But that's a post for another day.

[james]

I would just be happy if the love triangle acknowledged the woman as a person, and not "of course she would be happy with whichever man wins." Most love triangles would stop if they just asked the woman who she liked better, and accepted her answer as though she has a right to having an opinion.

Also, polyamory is awesome. More polyamory!

[kindkit]

Yeah, that's my response to the classic love triangle scenario: "For God's sake why not ASK???"

Polyamory scenarios only very very rarely work for me. So unfortunately, canonical love triangles don't, for me, open up that ficcish possibility. Which makes them even more annoying.

[james]

I like poly stories that are set in an alternate universe where poly is socially accepted and considered normal.

On the other hand, I am basically always going to be bored with male/female love stories, and pretty much want to see any combination OTHER than that.

[gehayi]

As soon as I see the term "love triangle," I instantly know that 99% of the time, the story is going to be boring and pointless. While I do know people who can and do write fanfic love triangles well, the same cannot be said of published works. And I know that as a rule, the triangle will break down this way:

1) The two men are both going after the same woman.

2) One is an old friend of the woman. The other is a new guy with a dark and mysterious past.

3) The old friend (or current fiancé) is generally kind, or at least less abusive. The Extraordinary New Guy With a Mysterious Past is generally an abusive jerkass.

4) Both are handsome. However, the old friend will be from a different race or culture than the ENGWAMP. If the ENGWAMP is white, the old friend will be the Ethnic Third Wheel. If the ENGWAMP is from a particular ethnic group (Rom, Native American, Latino, Sicilian, Greek, etc.) the old friend will be pure white bread.

5) The woman, as a rule, has little to no personality. Her primary value seems to be her beauty. She often also has Informed Abilities; that is, the narrative tells us that she has wonderful traits, such as brilliance, perception, compassion, understanding, etc., but we never see her display them. In fact, she will do demonstrably stupid things on a regular basis, probably because the author can't think of any other way to keep her in the vicinity of the ENGWAMP for more than two seconds.

6) The woman will blame the old friend for every fault he commits and will absolve the ENGWAMP of everything.

7) Unless the non-fanfic story is being written as published/filmed erotica or as part of a menage line of romances, no one will consider resolving this with a consensual polyamorous threesome. (In fact, don't be surprised if the ENGWAMP is pretty homophobic.)

8) The ENGWAMP will win. This is a given; ENGWAMPs always win, because writers and publishing houses think that they are the epitome of masculinity. Some publishing houses (like Harlequin/Mills & Boon) even pride themselves on having nothing BUT alpha heroes (read: abusive, controlling, rude jerkass male protagonists).

It's a very boring formula. And since I don't like reading stories (or watching them) in which rude, controlling dickwads are romanticized, I do my damnedest to avoid them.

[kindkit]

Huh, I think there are interesting differences between that kind of love triangle (which sounds like it's mostly found in books with a female protagonist and a strong romance storyline?) and the kind I usually encounter, which I find mostly in movies and tv of the action-y sort (war stories, science fiction, etc.). Those tend to focus on the men, or usually on one of the men. He's like the ENGWAMP a bit, in that he's more likely to be a Brilliant Outsider while the other guy is richer, higher-ranking, an insider. And so for Brilliant Outsider, winning the woman is part of proving that he's really the best despite everything! So, definitely a dick-measuring contest, although I've often seen this play out with the insider scripted as the abusive one, whereas the hero/winner's bad behavior goes unrecognized by the text. Both scenarios favor the exciting, exotic bad boy, but in slightly different ways, and of course with a different focus depending on whether it's the woman or the bad boy who's the protagonist.

[shadowvalkyrie]

I really love poly narratives, and a canonical love triangle is often the only available starting point for poly fic, unless you're willing to ignore canon altogether, which I'm usually not.

And of course every trope can be written either well or badly, and most of my enjoyment hinges on that. :)

[carmilla]

I loathe love triangles. If it's from the point of view of one or both of the men, I hate the way the woman is a plot device to fuel their competition: her feelings hardly ever seem to be taken into account. If it's from the point of view of the woman, I get irritated with her for not being able to make up her mind! (Seriously, I understand that sometimes a choice like that feels difficult. But not 'three books' worth of plot conflict' difficult! If it's really that hard to decide, and being with both of them is not an option, then maybe the solution is to meet some other men.)

On the other hand, I'm a sucker for stories that look like a love triangle but then resolve in an unconventional way: Bandits, where Kate flat-out refuses to choose and they end up happily poly; Mickey Zucker Reichart's Renshai books, where Kevral marries one half of her love triangle but co-parents with both of them; Y Tu Mama Tambien, where the boys really were in love with each other all along. And if anyone has any recs for a story where one man presents himself to the woman at the centre of the love triangle and confidently says, 'I won! I beat the other guy in this competition! Let's go out now!' and she says, 'What are you talking about? I've never been interested in either of you/I'm dating this other person,' I'd love to have 'em.

[carmilla]

Er, sorry, this was meant to be a reply to the main post....

[kindkit]

An unconventional or subversive resolution is definitely my favorite way for love triangles to be handled.

[kindkit]

a canonical love triangle is often the only available starting point for poly fic

That makes sense. Poly isn't my thing, so I just tend to find the classic love triangle annoying rather than ficcishly fixable.

[sallymn]

I'm rarely interested in triangles, but - like pretty much any literary plot device - it all comes down for me to the specific characters involved. Every case depends entirely on its own merits, therefore...

With the second question, seeing as we're talking fiction, any of the answers can be satisfactory in a literary sense (even the ones that I really dislike - if it works for the characters and the time and place, I'd rather that than a resolution I would like in real life but which doesn't work in the specific story). Likewise, every one of them can be ghastly if they feel imposed...

[kindkit]

The second question was meant to be silly rather than serious, though I did put a few serious or at least critical options in there. But I agree that almost any trope can be made to work if it's written well enough.

[oursin]

It's possibly the 'competing' thing here that I particularly don't like, because it's positioning the woman as a trophy rather than a person.

And as others have commented, spare me the plot about the (usually) young woman trying to choose between two men, both of whom should probably be shot sent to gender re-education boot camp or at least smitten in the face by a large codfish.

[kindkit]

*nods* The only triangular stories I can think of that I've liked are ones that aren't primarily about competition. Even leaving aside the underlying sexism of the "two men compete for a woman" trope, any scenario in which two people compete for the love a third is one in which, for me at least, no one is going to be very tolerable.

[lilliburlero]

I strongly dislike the two-men-compete-for-a-woman love triangle--for similar reasons to given by other commenters--but I do end up writing rather a lot of 'two men and a woman' triangulations, and at the moment a 'two women and a man' (unfinished). Usually the dynamic is that one of them feels only same-sex desire, one only other-sex, and the third's bisexual. There's sometimes a polyamorous arrangement. All of them are set between 1387 and 1416. I don't really know either, except Shakespeare histories fandom.

(Excuse my flippancy about flipping a coin--couldn't resist.)

[kindkit]

The last question was meant to be flippant, so no problem there. *grins*

I certainly don't think all triangular scenarios are bad; done well there's a lot of room for interesting emotional exploration. I'm just heartily sick of "two men compete for a woman," and it's everywhere, because Hollywood in particular seems to think it's an excellent way to add romance to a basically action-y formula. The idea, I suspect, is that women are only interested in romance, so tacking on a triangle will bring in the women viewers, while at the same time not alienating men because the focus is still on the men. I hate it, but as a queer man I'm not the target demographic for it at all, so I wanted to get more opinions. I'm gratified that so far no one, including straight women, has said that it appeals to them.

[lilliburlero]

Somebody must like those sort of triangles in action movies, I suppose, even if it's only the Hollywood producers who commission them! But I've never come across anyone who does, regardless of gender, sexual orientation or artistic taste. They always seem to elicit sighs, though for different reasons broadly dependent on the above variables...

[kindkit]

even if it's only the Hollywood producers who commission them

I don't think it's liking, just the mental laziness that likes relying on clichés. "Here's some romance! The girls will like that! But it's not all soppy and sweet and girly, oh no! It's got rivalry and tension! It's manly romance, but not in a gay way!"

[genarti]

(Here via naraht's mention of this poll.)

I am deeply sick of love triangle plots, such that the mention of this kind of triangle will immediately make my interest in the canon drop waaaay down, whether it's from a friend warning me or from seeing the narrative signs looming as I read or watch. (Mostly read; I don't watch a lot of tv or movies.) It's not a total dealbreaker, but I have to really enjoy the rest of the canon or be assured that the love triangle is only a minor part in order to push through it.

It's the competing thing; it's the idea that romance is a prize; it's the idea that the most important question is who's going to end up sleeping with whom. All other plot and all the characters' other relationships tend to take a backseat next to the all-important question of who she's going to date -- and it's worse when the story, as it so often is, is framed as a question of one man "winning" the woman. I wouldn't mind it so much if it weren't so ubiquitous and so prone to taking over the story, but since it is, it very much decreases my interest in something.

I'm a little more kindly disposed to stories where the solution is polyamory or where at least one leg of the triangle is queer in some way, just because that's questioning the standard formula in ways I find interesting. But even then I'm not particularly interested by the whole love triangle plotline.

(Edited to say that in the second question of the poll, I picked every option, but that was probably unnecessarily flip. What I really meant was "anything that resolves that plot so we can get back to the stuff I'm interested in, like their other friendships and saving the world and whatever else." Obviously in some works, the love triangle is meant to be the primary plot and is advertised as such all along, but I'm clearly not the intended audience for those.)

[mllesatine]

I honestly don't remember seeing the two men compete for a woman trope. I'm pretty sure I have but I can't think of examples. The closest I have is "Bridget Jones' diary" (the movie) where it looks like the two male leads are in competition and actually start a fist fight. But that movie is from Briget's perspective and she had already left jerk#1 before liking guy#2. And it's all her decision and in the book we only get to see both guys through her eyes.

Oh, yeah and maybe Gangs of New York. Leonardo diCaprio and Damian Lewis have that mentorship thing going and Leo falls in love with Cameron Diaz but she was with Damian before. At first Leo rejects her for that and all the other men (she was a prostitute). That was an interesting triangle because there were more layers than love.

I'm not a fan of love triangle in general. I wouldn't purposefully seek out fiction. If I stumble across it (like in Gangs of New York) and it isn't the main focus, then that's fine.

I also don't like threesome or polamory fic so I can't even bend my head-canon if I encounter love triangles I don't like.

Guess I'd choose the plot-convenient death. :)

drive-by comment

[elaineofshalott]

Aw, I got all excited when you mentioned Damian Lewis and then I looked up the movie and it's actually Daniel Day-Lewis. Nuts.

Re: drive-by comment

[mllesatine]

I got them mixed up and didn't even notice. Wow. Name-wise not exactly close and I do know both actors.

[elaineofshalott]

I like The Philadelphia Story, which is kind of a love quadrangle--or modified triangle? Three men all vying for the affections of one woman (Katharine Hepburn). It's pretty predictable whom she'll end up with, and her degree of agency in determining the outcome is debatable, but. Fun shenanigans, Jimmy Stewart, and poly fic all won me over.

I also liked Wuthering Heights but less for the "love story" (if such it can be called) and more for the bleakness and despair.

I loved the House/Cuddy/Wilson married triad when it turned up in fic. The show itself had overtones of a love triangle, for a given value of "love"--a caring triangle?--among the three, with House at the apex and friendship between Cuddy and Wilson. In another universe, the show might have been really interesting/good. (It looked promising for awhile...and then it went places and now it is dead to me. Sigh.)

I ticked the "duels" box in the second question because who doesn't like duels? THE ANGST when the rivals are friends (or at least not enemies) & are set to try to kill one another! I'm thinking of Onegin and Lensky here (I've only seen the 1999 film version, not read the novel).

...so, yes. I find love triangles fascinating in many instances. I avoid cheap romcoms like I avoid nasty-looking insects, though, so I'm not as familiar with the garden-variety love triangle as I might otherwise be.

[ten]

I loathe what published fiction calls love triangles. (They aren't even triangles most of the time, they are Vs.)

I have been poly to the core all my life, so this whole underlying idea of 'one choice' just feels extremely unnatural and forced to me. (Just like I'm sure the idea of polyamory feels forced to naturally mono people.)
On top of that, the hinge-person, especially when not of the same gender as the other two and especially especially when female, is so often objectified, disrespected and silenced.

If it were an actual triangle, aka a mutual relationship between all three participants, I may still be a little wary, but much more inclined to give it a chance.

[diony]

I am reminded of the Hong Kong television drama The Sweetness in the Salt, which has one of the few mmf love triangles I have found endearing, because the obvious solution is polyamory -- the men are best friends -- and the woman sees that, but they are in 18th century China and she cannot wave a magic wand to change the culture. It also has a very fine scene in which she loses her temper at both of them for not asking her what it is she actually wants, which is taken seriously by both of them and by the show itself.

In general, though, the love triangles do not please me.